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Moraliteit in ‘n veranderende wêreld

10 September 2008

As mens Richard Dawkins se boek The Selfish Gene lees, kry mens so die indruk dat organismes nogal die neiging het om baie selfsugtig te wees. In die natuur gaan dit oor oorlewing en elkeen probeer so optree dat sy eie oorlewing gewaarborg word. Sodoende vind daar ‘n proses van natuurlike seleksie plaas wat die beter, sterker organisme bevoordeel. Die gevolg is dat selfsigtige selfgesentreerde orgamismes ‘n beter kans op oorlewing het. Hierdie gedrag word dus vasgelê in die gene van elke organisme en beskryf op die ou ent die natuur of instink van die suksesvolle spesies.

Dawkins is nie gelowig nie en sy beskouings is kil wetenskaplik. Nogtans kan ‘n gelowige mens ook glo dat hierdie meganisme deur God gebruik is om die diversiteit van spesies op aarde tot stand te bring. As hierdie meganisme egter die toon sou aangee vir die mens se bestaan op aarde sou die lewe baie onaangenaam gewees het. Die swakkere lede van die samelewing sou aan die kortste ent getrek het.

‘n Nuwe meganisme was nodig om die lewe vir die mens meer vriendelik en aangenaam te maak. Dis hoekom God die meganisme van kultuur ingebring het. Kultuur lei tot beskawing waarin beide te swakkere sam met die sterke ‘n kans gegun word in die lewe. Hierdie meganisme word moontlik gemaak deurdat die mense genoegsame intelligensie ontwikkel het. Daar word gesê dat dit kultuur is wat die mens van die dier onderskei.

Die kultuur meganisme werk basies so dat wanneer iemand ‘n idee kry implimenteer die persoon die idee en sodoende word hierdie idee getoets. As dit ‘n slegte idee is word dit verwerp en as dit ‘n goeie idee is word dit aan ander gekommunikeer. Sodoende word die idee uiteindelike deur verskillende mense getoets. Mettertyd pas almal dit toe en so word die idee deel van die kultuur, wat sodoende groei of verander. In hierdie opsig werk kultuur baie soos biologiese spesies volgens ‘n proses van natuurlike seleksie, maar in hierdie geval is dit idees (meme) eerder as gene wat getoets en geselekteer word.

‘n Belangrike aspek van kultuur is die moraliteit, met ander woorde die definisie van reg en verkeerd binne die spesifieke kultuur. In elke kultuur is daar ‘n sterk konsep van die moraliteit. Die jonger geslag probeer maar altyd daarteen skop en probeer dit verander terwyl die ouer geslag dit probeer beskerm en handhaaf. In ‘n gesonde kultuur is hierdie liberale en konserwatiewe elemente in balans. Dit gee die kultuur die vermoë om aan te pas as omstandighede dit vereis maar ook om standvastig te kan bly en sodoende die kultuur te bewaar. Een ding wat mens wel sien is dat die moraliteit van ‘n kultuur met mettertyd verander, net soos die kultuur self ook verander.

Goed, dis nou kortliks so bietjie agtergrond oor waar kultuur vandaan kom, hoe dit werk en wat die rede daarvoor is, gesien vanuit ‘n gelowige se oogpunt. Nou wil ek egter spring na ‘n meer kontensieuse kwessie waar ek hierdie konsepte gaan nodig kry. Dit het te doen met die Bybel en die kwessie dat mense so baie die Bybel beskuldig van teenstrydighede of onrealistiese vereistes wat nie meer vandag relevant is nie.

Soos ek nou hierbo aangetoon het is die hele kultuur meganisme deel van God se skepping. Daarmee saam kom die feit dat kulture en hul moraliteite nie dieselfde bly nie. Nou is ek op baie gevaarlike terrein. Ek kan nou sommer sien hoe die mense se oë begin rek, want nou lyk dit mos baie asof ek hier gaan wil sê dat God se reël oor wat reg en verkeerd is, verander. Die kort antwoord op hierdie stelling is natuurlik nee God bly altyd dieselfde. Sy wet verander nie, maar mens moet nou versigtig wees wat mens met die wet van God bedoel. Word die moraliteit van ‘n spesifieke kultuur (kom ons sê vir arguments onthalwe die Israelietiese kultuur van die Bybelse tyd) ingesluit by die wet van God? In hierdie vraag het ek nou nie minder as twee slagysters gestel nie. As ek so aanhou gaan ek myself nog vasloop. ;-)

In die Bybel staan dat mens jou naaste moet liefhê soos jouself en God moet liefhê met jou hele hart en verstand. Dan word daar bygevoeg dat dit die volledige wet is. Die feit dat God se wet so kragtig saamgevat kan word het eers met Jesus gekom. Voor die tyd was daar ellelange beskrywings van moets en moenies. Al hierdie moets en moenies is vervang met hierdie baie eenvoudige liefdes beginsels. So as mens nou wil weet of iets reg is, is dit nie meer nodig om wetboek toe te hardloop en dit daar te loop opsoek nie. Vra jouself net in jou hart of dit wat jy wil doen op een of ander manier hierdie basiese beginsels oortree. Pas nogtans op, moenie oneerlik wees of jouself probeer bedrieg wanneer jy daardie vraag antwoord nie. ;-)

Goed, wat nou van die moraliteit van die kultuur waarbinne mens leef? Moet ek nou elke klein reëltjie daarvan gaan toets aan hierdie liefdes beginsels en dan alles gaan uitgooi wat nie daaraan voldoen nie? Wel nee. Sien hierdie liefdes beginsels is baie kragtiger as dit. Jy kan jouself gaan afvra wat die effek gaan wees as jy so roekeloor gaan begin snipper aan ‘n kultuur se moraliteit. Dit sal alles behalwe goed wees. Dit sal die mense van daardie kultuur totaal ontwrig. So ‘n ontwrigting opsigself is ‘n oortreding van die liefdes beginsels. Dit beteken dus dat ‘n mens ‘n kultuur en die moraliteit van daardie kultuur moet respekteer. Die wet van God vereis dus volgens die liefdes beginsels dat mens die reëls van die kultuur waarbinne jy leef moet gehoorsaam.

Maar hoe nou gemaak as die kultuur se moraliteit mettertyd verander? Hoe kan mens op een stadium sê dat een stel reëls reg is en dan dat ‘n ander stel reëls weer later reg is? En hoe kan mens dan nog verder gaan en sê dat God dit alles so goedvind maar nooit self verander nie?

God verwag van ons om die reëls van die kultuur te gehoorsaam, ten spyte van die feit dat die reëls op stadiums anders kan wees. Daar is verskeie voorbeelde daarvan in die Bybel. Byvoorbeeld: koning David het baie vrouens gehad. Nêrens word daar vir hom gesê dat dit verkeerd is om baie vrouens te hê nie. Hy was wel gestraf toe hy iemand se dood bewerk het sodat hy sy vrou kan kry, maar nie oor sy baie vrouens nie. Vandag glo ons dis verkeerd om meer as een vrou te hê. Die kultuur het dus verander en daarmee saam die moraliteit. Nog ‘n voorbeeld: Paulus was baie ernstig daaroor dat vrouens hoede moet dra in die kerk. Verder mag vrouens nie gepraat het in die erediens nie. Vandag sien mens selde ‘n vrou met ‘n hoed op in die kerk en mens sien selfs vrouens wat op die kansel staan. So daar is goed wat destyds verbode was en wat vandag toegelaat word. Om die waarheid te sê die manlike geslag se dominansie wat bestaan het in die kultuur van die Bybel se tyd is besig om te verdwyn en vervang te word met ‘n kultuur waar mans en vrouens op gelyke voet verkeer. Dis nie God wat verander het nie maar die mens se kultuur wat verander.

Maak ons droog deur al hierdie veranderinge in kultuur te bewerkstellig terwyl dit strydig is met die kultuur wat bestaan het toe die Bybel geskryf was? Nee ek glo nie so nie. Jesus sê self: met die maat waarmee jy meet sal jy gemeet word. Met ander woorde, die kriteria wat in die kultuur bestaan waarin ek leef is die kriteria waarvolgens ek geoordeel gaan word. Op ‘n ander plek sê hy vir Petrus dat die sleutels van die hemel aan hom gegee word. Dit wat hy op aarde oopsluit sal in die hemel oopgesluit bly en dit wat hy op aarde toesluit sal in die hemel toegesluit bly. Weereens impliseer dit dat God aan die mens die verantwoordelikheid gee om sy eie moraliteit te definieer.

Miskien lyk dit op hierdie stadium dat mens met moord kan wegkom. Nee, ongeag van die kultuur is moord tog duidelik ‘n oortreding van die liefdes beginsels. Net so is die verbreking van ‘n huwelik of die verwaarlosing of mishandeling van kinders ook sulke oortredings wat oor kultuurgrense strek.

Dan is daar die sake wat hoogs kontensieus is, soos die hele kwessie van homoseksualiteit. Solank dit volgens die moraliteit van die kultuur verkeerd is om dit te doen is die ook teen die liefdes beginsel, maar as hierdie beskouing van die kultuur sou verander, soos wat dit skynbaar op die oomblik besig is om te gebeur in baie kulture van die wêreld, dan mag die situasie wel verander. O piesang! :oops: daar sit my voet nou binne in die slagyster. Nou moet ek miskien maar so sleepvoet myself hier verskoon voor die stokke en klippe op my neer reën. :twisted:

173 Kommentaar
  1. 10 September 2008 4:48 nm

    Flippie
    Ek het geweet daar was ‘n rede hoekom ek Sondag weer begin blog het. Al was dit net om hierdie link na jou te kry. Pragtig verduidelik!
    Dis dan ook geen wonder dat die Afrikaner op hierdie stadium so redderloos voel nie.

  2. 10 September 2008 5:15 nm

    Dankie Sammi jy laat my goed voel. :-)

  3. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 6:17 nm

    Hi Flippie,

    You are a very brave women for bringing up the issue of morality in the context of religion and I admire your guts. But it will cost you though *smile* The traps you set were slamming shut all around you.

    I have not read The Selfish Gene, but it is high on my priority list of books to read. You really got me thinking about societies evolving and how one would explain the mechanism that drives it. Did Richard Dawkins not perhaps only draw a similarity between a gene and a meme because of the information that is passed on and not necessarily that societies evolve the way biological organisms do? I don’t know, will have to chew on that one for a while.

    I do think you may have missed a crucial point about evolution. It takes place on a genetic level and not macro organism level. To quote Dawkins from memory “… the survival and perpetuation of ribonucleic acids and there associated proteins.” We are a cosmopolitan of bacteria that live in our cells, the mitochondria. Do they, bacteria and ultimately humans fight it out for survival or does the battle take place between groups of cooperative genes?

  4. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 6:33 nm

    The ultimate form of immorality as far as this secular humanist is concerned, is a God that punishes infinitely for a finite sin; but he loves us. Yeah right!

  5. 10 September 2008 6:54 nm

    [In a deep voice] Andrew, would it disappoint you to discover that I am actually not a woman? :shock: :oops: What gave you that impression anyway?

    Yes indeed I am a little anxious about the responses that I may get. But I’ve realized that most people that real my blog are reasonable people. They will think before they just blow me off.

    I can understand that as a “secular humanist” you’ll see God’s morality as being immoral. However, since God is a sovereign God, we can just be grateful that he is also a merciful God. So he may decide not the punish a finite sin with an infinite punishment. Still it’s his decision and who are we to say anything about it?

  6. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 7:09 nm

    Flippie I really am sorry for getting that wrong, then again take it as a compliment, women are wonderful.

    SONKIND!? Kom hier hierdie oomblik en begin solank dink aan verskonings.

  7. 10 September 2008 7:12 nm

    Ok, I am back.
    You are a women (more than one? – double the normal intellect, empathy)
    I daresay one should, errrmm, “attack” once one has done some research on the author.
    Ja?

  8. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 7:15 nm

    Sy is natuurlik nou weg (Sonkind), hou vakansie op St Helena eiland of iets.

    OK serious stuff.

    Morality and altruistic behavior is not the exclusive domain of believers. Suggestive evidence exists that atheists on average commit less crime than believers. A proper scientific study is needed to settle this matter either way.

  9. 10 September 2008 7:22 nm

    Nee, jy maak ‘n fout – ek is net hier! :lol:

  10. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 7:24 nm

    Sammi you are right and I accept your criticism.

  11. 10 September 2008 7:29 nm

    Uhm – the mistake is all mine. I directed Andrew to this blog and I told him Flippie is a woman

    /me bows low and apologises profusely ;-)

    Sorry A

  12. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 7:34 nm

    See, my friend has owned up and done the right thing. My atheistic morality has rubbed off on her.

  13. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 7:41 nm

    God says we must kill our children if they are disobedient. (Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Mark and Mathew). Every man is also free to sell his daughter into sexual slavery. (Exodus)

    Comments anyone?

  14. 10 September 2008 7:45 nm

    Bwahahaha! @ Andrew

    As you very well now, I have my own morality I live according to.

    Flippie – oor daadrie laaste paragraaf van jou – onder watter morele vlag sal jy bi-seksualiteit vaandel? :shock:

  15. 10 September 2008 7:50 nm

    Andrew
    No comment
    Ek wag vir Flippie en Kris

    Sonkind
    Hierdie vriend van jou praat en verstaan Afr darem baie goed. Hoekom redeneer hy dan uitsluitlik in Eng?

  16. 10 September 2008 7:51 nm

    So Sonkind die miskonsepsie kom toe van jou af. :lol: Waar het jy die idee gekry?

    Andrew: Go reread my post. You already forgot what I said there? :-)

    Did they include Hilter in those statistics about crime?

  17. 10 September 2008 7:53 nm

    Hilter=Hitler

  18. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 7:53 nm

    Sonkind said: “As you very well now, I have my own morality I live according to.”

    EXACTLY my point. Christians use an external source of morality when they cherry pick verses from the Holy Bible. The Holy Scripture is not used as a moral guide.

  19. 10 September 2008 7:55 nm

    Sonkind: O het moraliteit verskillende vlae? ;-) Nee jong voor ek myself nog verder tussen die slagysters begewe dink ek moet ek liewer eers wag.

  20. 10 September 2008 7:56 nm

    Nou wag ons almal :lol:

  21. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 7:59 nm

    Hitler was Catholic and contradicted himself many times regarding his belief. His “domestic breading” program is exactly the opposite of natural selection and he never, even once mentioned evolution in Mein Kampf.

    He was also a vegetarian. Are we to deduce vegetarians are evil?

  22. 10 September 2008 8:02 nm

    Ek kannie by bly nie. teveel plekke om te lees. ;-)

    Andrew I’m not sure I follow your statement about Scripture not being used as a moral guide. If one uses the Bible correctly it does provides moral guidance.

  23. 10 September 2008 8:07 nm

    Andrew

    Non Sequitur

  24. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 8:11 nm

    Flippie, then I did not explain myself clearly. It is a fault of mine, I struggle with language and battle to express myself.

    The bad bits in the Bible you ignore and do not live by (see post #13). The good bits you accept and live by (the golden thread). I deduce from this that you use an external moral filter that you apply to scripture which you probably obtained from society, your peers and parents.

  25. 10 September 2008 8:16 nm

    “Hitler was Catholic” I have to confess I did not know that. I always thought he was an atheist.

  26. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 8:21 nm

    Flippie, no one knows. As I said he contradicted himself. He was one sick mother f…….

  27. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:21 nm

    Is die son nou onder?

  28. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:23 nm

    @ Andrew
    Do you think Hitler was a sick mf all his life?

  29. 10 September 2008 8:24 nm

    Andrew: OK I now understand what you mean. It is precisely because of this kind of argument that I wrote the current post. The slavery stuff and all that, we now consider to be bad. At the time the Bible was written it was considered OK. The culture changed. That is why our morality changed. All this I guess is sort of obvious.

    Your question is probably, how did God feel about the whole slavery thing. I’m sure he did not like it, but just like with the polygamy in king David’s time, he tolerated it because it was part of the culture. In time the cultural morality was guided toward a more benevolent form as we have it today. Not that we have it all figured out yet, but I think you’ll agree we are doing better than those times. This would not have been possible without God.

  30. 10 September 2008 8:27 nm

    In die Kaap het die son verlore geraak Kk – as jy hom sien, sê hom dis al flippin September hier :lol:

    As enige iemand aan my ‘n alternatiewe blyplek kan voorstel, waar die son altyd skyn, is ek more daar.

    Flippie, nee ek weet nie van die vlae nie – daardie was “a matter of speech” ;-)

    Sammi – Andrew hou van kop smokkel – hy is goed tweetalig. Ek vermoed hy kan dalk ‘n derde taal ook praat :evil:

  31. 10 September 2008 8:27 nm

    O ja – Hitler. Andrew, ek dink hier is dalk mense hier rond wat van Hitler gehou het :lol: :lol:

  32. 10 September 2008 8:30 nm

    @Kris Kras: “Is die son nou onder?”
    Hoekom? Het iemand gaan sit? ;-)

  33. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:31 nm

    @ Flippiefanus
    Nou hoe reken jy jouself oor homoseksualiteit en dan nog wat Sonkind bygevoeg het, bi-seksualiteit?

    @ Andrew
    Christians use an external source of morality when they cherry pick verses from the Holy Bible.
    Andrew, verwerp jy die geheel van die Bybel se inhoud – is dit alles eintlik ‘n klomp fabels?

  34. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:34 nm

    @ Flippiefanus:
    Wonner ek mos ook – het iemand gaan sit? Ek het eintlik meer op iets anders gehoop, in die lig van die vroeëre verwysing na James se Laid ;-)

    @ Sonkind:
    En daar verlep alles van vooraf. So, my keuse was toe nou nie goed genoeg vir die Kaapse Son nie, hmm?

  35. 10 September 2008 8:34 nm

    Flippie – but just like with the polygamy in king David’s time, he tolerated it because it was part of the culture. – who decided to change that culture and who said that todays culture is correct. I still think a man / woman should have more than one wife / husband.

    I think you’ll agree we are doing better than those times. This would not have been possible without God. – better in whose books, Flippie – and did God tell us somewhere along the way that we should change the culture – or did the Holy Ghost tell us? Or did we just as humans deicded that THIS now fits us better and if we go back to a previous culture in 10 years from now, would that then be the correct culture and also okay in God’s eyes? Just wondering ;-)

  36. 10 September 2008 8:36 nm

    KK – as jy verwys na SH eiland – you’ve got me in the palm of your hand. Ek is gister al daar ;-)

  37. 10 September 2008 8:37 nm

    Sjoe, FlippieFanus, jy het nou omtrent ‘n moeilike ding aangeroer!! Ek sou dadelik wou se dat liefde al is wat nodig is om jou besluit aan te meet, maar as ‘n mens verder dink, dan is dit nie heeltemal so eenvoudig nie.
    Al wat ek regtig by wil dra: ek wil Andrew se kommentaar beaam dat moraliteit en alles wat daarmee saamhang nie alleenlik beoefen en onderhou word deur godsdienstige of gelowige mense nie. ‘n Veroordeel van baie christene wat ‘n mens dikwels raakloop as jy durf waag om nie “christelik” te wees nie, is dat ‘n mens “heidens” sou wees met onder andere geen moraliteit nie, of dat moraliteit ten minste in sommige gebiede te kort sal skiet.

  38. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 8:37 nm

    Sjoe dis ‘n lewendige blog hierdie. Bogger die son HIER is meer energie.

    Hey I nearly forgot. The Hydron Colider was switched on today. The biggest experiment ever attempted in human history! I wonder if they will find the Higgs Bosson particle, alias God Particle. The theoretical physicist Steven Hawking placed a $100 bet that it will NOT be found, which means he thinks it WILL be found!

    Hold on to your seats everyone, we are entering the enlightened age.

  39. 10 September 2008 8:40 nm

    Kriskras – net tussen hakies – Biko is opgesit, as jy wil gaan kyk

  40. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 8:43 nm

    Aan KK:

    “Andrew, verwerp jy die geheel van die Bybel se inhoud – is dit alles eintlik ‘n klomp fabels?”

    Ja alle godsdienste, en daar is letterlik duisende om van te kies. Miljoene gode as jy Polytheism in ag neem.

  41. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:44 nm

    Sonkind –
    Jy weet ek sal dit nie mis nie – baie dankie! Al laat dit my koud :lol:

  42. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:45 nm

    Sê vir my asseblief my oë bedrieg my:
    Sonkind – ernstig: jy reken steeds ‘n man kan maar meer as een vrou hê? Op dieselfde tyd??

  43. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:49 nm

    Anderkant – dit is so waar wat jy sê (en Andrew se woorde beaam) oor moraliteit en geloof/godsdiens en erger die sekere christen elemente.
    Maar weer eens betwyfel ek dit of moraliteit en geloof op dieselfde vlak van ontwikkeling van die mens lê.
    En ja, ek het ‘n broertjie dood aan die misbruik van die “christelike” vaandel om bepaalde onregte te probeer regverdig. Siek verby. DIT is werklik ‘n ernstige graad van grootheidswaan.

  44. 10 September 2008 8:50 nm

    Kris Kras: Nee soos ek vir sonkind se^ ek gaan liewer nie verder my voet in dardie slagyster sit nie. maar ek oorweeg dit om beitjei te gaan dink daaroor en dan ‘n opskrywing oor homoseksualiteit te maak.

    Sonkind: dis nou baie om te verduidelik in ‘n kommentaar maar kontom Ja God het die mensdom gehelp om sy kultuur te verbeter. Dis waaroor meeste van die ou testament handel.

    Jy glo poligamie is beter. mmm OK goed ek hoor wat jy se^. Almal sal dalk nie met jou saamstem nie.

    Annerkant: die Christelike moraliteit het deel van die westerse kultuur geword. So al is mense nie Christene nie het hulle baie maal nogsteeds (soms onwetend) ‘n Christelike moraliteit. So ek stem saam met jou as Christene mense sommer so veroordeel dan is hulle kortsigtig.

    Andrew: Yes the LHC has turned on. Why do you figure would Steven hawking bet against his own convictions? Actually I’ll be surprised if many physicists bet against him. Without something like supersymmetry there are serious theoretical problems with the Higgs. It is fairly certain that something will be found to clear up the mystery around the electro weak scale.

  45. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:51 nm

    Now Andrew, how is that you also then reject the bits and pieces of existing evidence that some of the little historical tales in the Bible actually did happen?

  46. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 8:53 nm

    Kapenaars, as julle dan nou wil weet waar die son is – daar het julle dit: die Son was gister reeds by SH :lol:

    Sonkind, jy ernstig oor SH? Palm van die hand en jy sal gaan? Ja?

  47. 10 September 2008 8:58 nm

    Flippie – jy antwoord nie my vrae heeltemal nie??

    Kriskras – ja, jou oë bedrieg jou nie – jy het reg gelees, maar tipies man het jy ook ‘n belangrike stelling misgelees. Ek het OOK gesê ek glo ‘n vrou moet meer as een man kan hê – op dieselfde tyd, ja :-)

    Oor SH – so ernstig soos more heeldag.

    Andrew, m.a.w. jy verwerp alles en almal wat in ‘n god van enige aard glo? Is jou wetenskap nie ook maar net ‘n ander soort god waarin jy glo nie?

  48. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 9:06 nm

    Alle gesprekvoerders:-
    Geliewe my met onmiddellike effek te verskoon. Dit is swaar om die geselskap te verlaat, maar ek moet ONMIDDELLIK gaan kaartjies koop…. SH toe!

    Sonkind, oor meer as een man/vrou op dieselfde tyd hê – duisende sal jou glo…. ek weet van beter…. maar as jy ernstig is …. ! :cool:

  49. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 9:07 nm

    There are so many posts I would like to respond to but my head is spinning. This is all too fast for me.

    KK: The Bible does account for historical events, there is little doubt about this.

    Flippie, it would also add credibility to the String Theory. When it comes to quantum physics however I’m afraid you are on your own my friend. I’m pulling out of this very interesting topic.

    How can I change my comment icon? (Yeah, this is easier to understand.)

  50. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 9:09 nm

    But Andrew, despite the fact that the Bible does account for historical events, you reject it in its whole?
    You’ve been hurt horribly.

  51. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 9:11 nm

    Sonkind se: “Andrew, m.a.w. jy verwerp alles en almal wat in ‘n god van enige aard glo? Is jou wetenskap nie ook maar net ‘n ander soort god waarin jy glo nie?”

    Gaan bars!

  52. 10 September 2008 9:13 nm

    Is dit die beste wat jy kan uitdeel, Andrew? Gaan bars :lol:

    Andrew – oor jou big bang – ding. Gaan lees hier

    http://onderdiemaanensterre.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/big-bang/

  53. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 9:16 nm

    KK: I reject the idea that deities exist, that’s all. I am peed off that religious clerics wasted my time as a child when I wanted to go and play in the veld, and I am pissed off that they told me to shut up when ever I questioned their Never Never Land fables.

  54. Kris Kras permalink
    10 September 2008 9:17 nm

    A: Me too.

  55. 10 September 2008 9:20 nm

    Oh by george. Maybe I should start from the bottom.

    Andrew: you can register at gravatar.com to have your own avatar (icon).

    I just read the post of Wipneus about the LHC. There is a lot of hype in that post. Don’t believe everything you hear. The link with string theory is through supersymmetry, and that is a very feeble one. If they don’t find supersymmetry that would basically mean the end to string theory because it sort of requires it. But supersymmetry may simply hide at higher energies. Anyway, a topic for a different time.

    Jammer Sonkind ek sal probeer om jou vraag te antwoord in ‘n opskrywing … eendag. ;-)

    Andrew: that was a good point that sonkind made: aren’t you using science as your religion?

  56. 10 September 2008 9:31 nm

    :lol:
    Ek draai net weg vir ‘n rukkie EN wat sien ek hier
    1) Flippie kry meer comments as SSSB
    2) Is SH nou Steve Hofmeyr?
    3) Die “Big Bang” is hier
    4) Andrew praat uitstekende Afr
    5) Kris wil vir Son hê
    6) Niemand praat van John Haupt nie
    7) Dis nou 9.30

    More is nog ‘n dag, en kinders moet nog grootgemaak word.
    Dit was lekker.

  57. 10 September 2008 9:32 nm

    Andrew: “gaan bars” is nou maar een maal nie goed genoeg nie. :lol: En vergewe nou die ou dominee. Ek het mos nou om verskoing gevra. :-) Ek het besluit jou Afrikaans is goed genoeg. Ek tik vinniger in Afrikaans. ;-)

  58. 10 September 2008 9:35 nm

    Lekker slaap sammi. Wie’s John Haupt?

  59. 10 September 2008 9:37 nm

    Sal more vertel, nou’s ek moeg :wink:
    Lekker lala julle.

  60. 10 September 2008 9:41 nm

    Oraait ek dink ek gaan ook nou slaap. Dit was regtig die besigste wat my blog nog ooit was. Dankie vir almal se bydraes.

  61. 10 September 2008 9:41 nm

    Andrew het sy konneksie verloor en sal seker more terug wees, mense.

    KK – jy moet by Kriskras gaan lees ;-)

  62. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 9:50 nm

    Thanks for your comments Flippie on symmetry.

    KK: You hit a nerve. Thanks for allowing me to vent a bit. I never thought this blog would be therapeutic.

    Sammi you made me laugh with your last post, nice one.

    *kwaai stem* En as ek weer hoor iemand se die wetenskap of Charles Darwin of die Duiwel of ‘n plaas hoender is my God gaan ek my kop in die vriekas druk en die deur agter my toe maak. Is dit so moeilik om te verstaan date ek nie in die supernatural glo nie?

    Evidence and reason only please!

  63. 10 September 2008 10:33 nm

    Ok FF kom ek probeer my insette ook verwoord.

    Eerstens, vroue in Korinte het nie hoedens gedra nie. Mans in Korinte het die gewoonte gehad om hulle hare af te skeer. Sekere vroue in Korinte het ook hulle hare geskeer. As Paulus dus sê die vrou moet ‘n bedekte hoof in die kerk hê, dan sê hy sy moet hare op haar kom hê en nie soos mans probeer wees nie.

    Homoseksualiteit en bi-seksualiteit het reeds bestaan en was aanvaarbaar in die Ou Testamentiese tye. Kyk maar na die mans wat na Lot se huis gekom het om die manlike gaste wat hy by hom gehad het te kom neem vir seks. Lot bied hul egter sy dogter wat nog ‘n maagd was. Man of vrou, dit het nie saak gemaak in Sodom en Gamora nie, al wat hulle wou doen was om hulle lustigheid te bevredig.

    Daar was ook vrek baie manlike prostitute deur die hele geskiedenis van Israel. Die feit dat God Israel in ballingskap in gestuur het, Sodom en Gamora verwoes het en die bankvloek opdrag gebruik het is duidelike uitsprake dat God gekant is, was en altyd sal wees teen sulke gedrag. “By the way” Lot was nie geregverdig gevind in God se oë nie, anders sou Sodom gespaar gewees het. Hy was wel toegelaat om te vlug om hopelik later tot inkeer te kom weens sy swak moraliteit.

    Andrew het gesê: “God says we must kill our children if they are disobedient. (Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Mark and Mathew). Every man is also free to sell his daughter into sexual slavery. (Exodus)

    Comments anyone?”

    Andrew, jy het die kat aan die gat beet. As jy die tyd sou neem om werklik die Ou en Nuwe Testament te bestudeer sou jy sien dat dit nie God was wat hierdie opdragte gegee het nie. God gee in Eksodus 20 die tiengebooie. Nêrens in hierdie gedeelte sê hy dat jy kinders moet doodmaak wat nie vir hul ouers luister nie en ook nie dat jy jou kinders kan verkoop nie. Sommige sê ook dat God gesê het jy moet ‘n vrou wat owerspel pleeg stenig, maar nie ‘n man nie. Dit is ook eenvoudig net snert. Dit was ‘n faktor van die kultuur dat die vrou ondergeskik was aan die man as mens, wat nie waar is nie.

    Jesus toon duidelik in die evangelies dat hierdie mens gemaakte reëls was toe hy die steniging van ‘n prostituut verhoed het. God is genadig tot so ‘n mate dat almal wat sy reding aanvaar vrygespreek word van die “infinite punishment”. Slegs die wat nie sy uitgestrekte hand aanvaar nie ontvang die “infinite punishment” omdat hulle dit dan self gekies het. Moet nie God blameer vir die straf nie, die blaam lê alles by die mens.

    Die mens blameer God heeltemal te maklik vir dinge wat in die Bybel staan. Nie alles wat in die Bybel staan is deur God gesê nie. Alles wat neergeskryf is is wel deur hom geïnspireer, maar van die dinge in die Bybel is juis daar sodat ons die emoralitet van die mens kan sien, soos die dood van kinders wat nie luister vir hul ouers nie, ouers wat hul kinders verkoop, ens. Magtag man, die oorgrote meerderheid van die reëls en wette in die Ou testament het alles te doen met die priesters en Joodse leiers wat mense wou beheer sodat hulle alle mag kon hê. Dis juis vir daardie rede dat Jesus gesê het hulle is soos witgepleisterdegrafte: skoon van buite maar binne is alles dood.

    Lees en bestudeer die Bybel herhaaldelik voordat enigiemand God beskuldig van optrede wat die mens as emoreel beskou. Die mense in die verlede en ook vandag verkrag God se woord om te sê en doen wat hulle eintlik wil hê. Daar is net soveel witgepleisterdegrafte in “Christelike”-leiersrkinge vandag as wat daar in Jesus se tyd was. Moenie God beoordeel aan die hand van mense se optrede nie, want Christen of nie-Christen, ons toon ‘n sondige en onperfekte beeld. Die kultuur vandag en in die toekoms gaan ONGELOOFLIK baie dinge hê wat nie strook met God sê plan en doel vir die mens se lewe nie. Verandering is nie nootwnedig verbetering nie.

    Ten slotte, persoonlik dink ek nie die kultuur vandag is beter of nader aan God se raadsplan as wat dit in die tyd van Sodom en Gamora was nie. Ons doen maar net ander slegtegoed wat nie noodwendig woord-vir-woord beskryf word in die Bybel nie. As die verbetering van kultuur moontlik was sou dit beteken het dat die mens kan kom op die punt wat ons God sê redding nie nodig het nie.

  64. Andrew G permalink
    10 September 2008 11:04 nm

    One of the concerns I have should I be successful in convincing anyone of the absurdity of worshipping an Invisible Man With A Beard That Lives In The Sky is that they will seek comfort in some other “New Age” form of supernatural superstition. Channeling, psychics, clairvoyance, levitation, spoon bending, ESP, mind over matter, the Bermuda Triangle, the Yeti, alien abduction, lucky numbers blady bla bla. Should anyone here, and I doubt it, find themselves wondering about this here is a $1 000 000 challenge that I hope will show that it is a dead end. The prize has never been claimed and the delusional keep trying.

    http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html

    Walking away from faith can come at a price. You may loose dear friends and family members may even turn there back on you. It never happened to me or anyone I know but it could happen. Support groups are available.

    The real world is unimaginably more wonderful and awe inspiring than the watered down Biblical account.

    I know I have now overstayed my welcome.

    Thanks for one hellava ride,
    Cheers Everyone

  65. 11 September 2008 7:13 vm

    Kolskoot, meneer!
    Dis presies hoe ek die OT verstaan.

    Andrew
    Dis baie goed vir die “siel” om partykeer te kan lag. Die lewe is immers gekompliseerd genoeg (hmm, meestal deur ons eie toedoen) en besluite wat ons neem.

    Gaan gou luister waaroor die BMF op MorningLive gorrel., praat later oor John Haupt, Flippie.

  66. 11 September 2008 8:45 vm

    @ Berns
    Kolskoot, meneer!
    Dis presies hoe ek die OT verstaan.

    Netnou dink Andrew ek verwys na sy siening :wink:

  67. 11 September 2008 9:57 vm

    Ek voel nog altyd baie sterk daaroor dat enigiets wat ons as sonde beleef God se meganisme is om ons teen onsself te beskerm.

  68. Kris Kras permalink
    11 September 2008 10:09 vm

    No man, Andrew! Get me a tasty red, I’ll get you a couple o’ castles, let’s build a fire like a bonfire, and let’s talk all through the night!
    I don’t like hitting nerves and leaving them then. Especially not open for the world to see them – thus, my apologies. What I would enjoy really is going beyond science vs religion – the previous time I dared to converse in Engish (in a comment on another post on this blog) I already revealed part of my opinion.

    Andrew, on a lighter note (nutch nutch wink wink) personally me thinks Sonkind hit the open nerve really. Don’t moer me :shock: It’s just that, ya well, me thinks you might be challenging the sky daddy with hardcore stuff that one might trust won’t fail, yes? Again, my apologies – dis ‘n klip innie bos.

    KK enjoys A’s presence.

  69. Kris Kras permalink
    11 September 2008 10:11 vm

    Sammi-:
    Nee, SH is nie Steve Hofmeyr nie. SH is St Helena eiland. Jy sal die draad van daai storie by die ander post se comments kry waar KK vir Sonkind mos wou hê, sien jy.

    En ja, Sammi, jou opsomminglysie is ‘n kolskoot by nr 5 op die lysie. Maar Sonkind wil niks weet nie ;-)

  70. Mefri permalink
    11 September 2008 10:12 vm

    Flippiefanus, ek wil so bietjie stilstaan by die Bybel, God en Sy Skepping. Daar voldoende ruimte is om dit te beproef, te ondersoek en tasbare bewyse te probeer vind. Die soeke na sin is so deel van ons bestaan soos die bloed wat deur ons are vloei en dit is goed.

    Hoe meet ʼn mens die gewaarwording, die krag van geloof en die teenwoordigheid van die Drie-enige God in jou lewe en waarmee sal jy die wonder daarvan vergelyk? Hoe oortuig jy iemand dat dit wel bestaan? Dit IS net omdat dit IS! – net soos wat Christus Jesus na homself verwys; EK IS die Alfa en die Omega, die begin en die einde, die weg en die waarheid en die lewe…..

    Om my punt te illustreer:
    Hoe verduidelik ʼn mens aan iemand wat ware liefde is wanneer jy nie die oorsprong daarvan kan bepaal nie en dit nie onder ʼn mikroskoop kan plaas om dit te ontleed nie?

    God in nie net ʼn gedagte of ʼn versinsel nie en Liefde is nie maar net ʼn emosie nie, want; ‘it directs your ways’…. dit dra vrugte, kweek geloof, hoop, vrede, volheid en ʼn verwagting verseël in eenwording – dit leef onverpoosd voort ten spyte van en asgevolgvan…….

    Ek weet dat die EEN (persoon) wat ek bemin die mag en krag van my liefde vir hom ervaar, veral wanneer sy oë myne ontmoet, en hy weet en beleef dit intens sonder om die oorsprong, bewyse en ratwerk daarvan te kan meet of om dit (selfs gedeeltelik) te kan verstaan. LOL Hy glo in my liefde, want hy ervaar dit :-)

  71. 11 September 2008 12:48 nm

    Ek is lus om iets te sê oor die Bybel wat groot gaan stir…
    so dan gaan ek maar liewer net my mening oor Flippiefanus se post lig!

    DIS BAIE GOED GEDOEN! Ek glo nie daar is regtig slagysters gestel met sommige uitlatings nie, dis net baie mooi gestel in ‘n samelweing vol onsekerhede!

    “Weereens impliseer dit dat God aan die mens die verantwoordelikheid gee om sy eie moraliteit te definieer.”

    Dankie vir daai! Ek probeer al lank om dit aan mense te verduidelik en probeer hul oge oopmaak vir die wêreld wat hul so breinspoel!!! So ek gaan nou net hul elke keer na die post to navidate lat hul self kom lees! Enige kans lat jy dit dalk vir my in rooinek taal kan omsit? ;-)

    Bravo 2 oor en uit!
    007 het vandag ‘n environment om te red!

  72. 11 September 2008 1:22 nm

    KrisKras
    Ek weet!! :wink:

    Flippie

    Wie is Johan Haupt?

    Sam Ennis beskryf sy boek en hom so:
    This book you hold in your hand is concerned with trying to give reasonable and sensible answers to that great theme (The Second coming) mentioned almost 700 times throughout the Old and New Testament of the Bible. The writer connects those answers with a remarkably up-to-date freshness to certain happenings in our world today, particularly in Israel and the Middle East.
    Hy gaan verder…
    Some readers may find aspects of this book somewhat disturbing. This is because it is full of hard-hitting truths that can, unfortunately, only be expressed forthrightly. The object of the exercise is not to critisize or shock anyone, but to present an uncompromising exposition of God’s Word.

    As deel van sy boek “ The end of the matter” skryf John in sy intro onder andere van :
    “In the first century, the Apostle Paul foretold that “in the last days perilous times shall come (2Tim.3:1\KJV) Jesus said that those days would be so frightening that “men’s hearts would fail from fear because of the things that are coming upon the earth” (LK.21:26-KJV) The resultant insecurity after the Sept 11 attacks has forever changed America, the West and the Free World. This ongoing conflict (Arab-Israeli) may be very perplexing to politicians, and the world in general, but not so to those who study the Scriptures….”

    Die boek gebruik geskiedenis (die laaste 2000 jaar) wat wel opgeteken staan en vergelyk die profesiee van die Bybel met gebeure na 70AD. Hy dek die Historical, Geograhical, Spiritual, Political, Religious en Military aspekte van die konflik in die Middel Ooste.
    Dis boeiend en ‘n MOET lees, uitstekend nagevors. Nee, jy gaan nie die boek maklik opspoor nie, want dis nie geskryf om geld te maak nie en John het dit self laat druk en versprei.
    Ek het al ‘n myriad boeke oor vele Bybelse aangeleenthede gelees, maar hierdie een was die groot oog-oopmaker. Hy is Suid-Afrikaans en uiteraard word ons ook deel van hierdie studie.

  73. 11 September 2008 1:51 nm

    GMMFF! Nie Johan nie, JOHN – ek jaag teen die uitskop van 3 G!

  74. 11 September 2008 2:41 nm

    flippiefanus: Ek het dit geniet om hier te lees. Jammer ek kom so laat eers hier aan, maar dinge gaan ‘n bietjie rof. EK geniet jou denkrigting en skryfstyl. Mag ek net die een sakie beklemtoon en dit is dat die samevatting van die wet soos onder andere in Markus 12 ook in Deut. 6 is. Die gedagte is nie om puntenerig te wees nie, maar juis om te herinner dat ons nie in die Nuwe Testament met ‘n “nuwe God” te make het nie. Die Skepper van die “kultuur” in die tyd van Dawid is ook die Skepper van die “kultuur” waarin ons lewe. Hy hou sy werke in stand.

  75. 11 September 2008 3:47 nm

    Sjoe hier is baie om te lees en om op kommentaar te lewer.

    Berns: bly om jou hier te sien. Dankie vir die insig wat jy gee. Nou het ek iets geleer. Ek het altyd gedog dat “deur God geinspireer” beteken dat alle reels wat in die Bybel geskryf staan kom van God af. Nou het jy my baie gegee om oor te dink.

    Andrew: Believers can appreciate every deal aspect of the unimaginably wonderful and awe inspiring real world and then be that much more awed by the God that created it all. To know that God created it, only adds to our appreciation of what we observe in the created universe.

    Nelba: stem saam daar is altyd ‘n rede vir die reels wat God ons gee. Werk so in kulture ook.

    Kris Kras: en daar dog ek toe nou SH staan vir Stephen Hawking

    Mefri: Mens kan maar net getuig van mens se eie ervaring met God. As daar dan ‘n saadjie in die hoorder se hart deur die Heilige Gees geplant word sal hierdie getuienis kan help sodat so hoorder miskien ‘n kind van God word.

    007meisie: Baie dankie. Miskien as ek eendag genoeg tyd op hande het sal ek my opskrywings in Engels vertaal en op ‘n ander blog sit. Maar moenie nou al asem ophou nie. ;-) Voorspoed met daardie “environment”

    sammi: Dankie vir die deel oor John Haupt. Ja dit lyk baie maal vir my ook asof dinge nou aan ‘n einde gaan kom. Maar die Bybel se^ vir ons dat niemand op die ou ent sal weet presies wanneer dit sal plaasvind nie. Ons moet maar sorg dat ons altyd gereed is daarvoor.

    attie: Baie dankie. Ek is bly jy het hier kom inloer. Ek stem saam dat God steeds dieselfde bly en sy skepping instand hou. Hy laat nogtans toe dat die kultuur mettertyd verander. Miskien is dit ‘n manier vir die mensdom om nader na God te beweeg. Maar ek sien dat nie almal met my hieroor sal saamstem nie. :-)

  76. 11 September 2008 6:48 nm

    Hi FF en Sammi KK en al die ander.

    Jong waar ek hier in Kanada sit beteken dit dat ek nou by die werk is, maar ek kon my self nie keer nie. Ek moes net gister en vandag hier kom lees en ook kommentaar lewer. Dit was ‘n baie interestante gesprek.

    FF dis gelukkig darem nie ‘n groot kwelpunt of ons saamstem oor die verandering van kultuur nie. Solank ons nader aan God groei deur ‘n persoonlike verhouding is ons op die regte pad.

    My uitdaging aan elkeen wat dit nog nie voorheen gedoen het nie is om die Bybel in eenjaar deur te lees. Ek beoog om in die volgende paar weke ‘n paar verskillende eenjaar leesplanne wat ek deels ontwikkel het en deels ge”customise” het op my blog te sit.

    Groetnis vir eers,
    Berns

  77. 11 September 2008 8:34 nm

    Berns, jy sit daar doer bo in Kanada, ons aan die onderpunt (amper sê ek g@tkant) van Afrika en al wat ek weet is dat ons maar almal moet boontoe kyk.
    Waar is Andrew vanaand? Die gesprek was darem lekker lewendig gisteraand.

  78. 12 September 2008 8:36 vm

    Hallo, Flippiefanus

    Ek het jou benoem vir ‘n “Sharing the Love” toekenning.

  79. Kris Kras permalink
    12 September 2008 9:58 vm

    @ Sammi
    En dan wonder jy so waar nie eers waar was KK nie???? Net Andrew?!
    Selfbeeld en alles daarmee saam alweer produk van koue water…

  80. 12 September 2008 12:17 nm

    Whahaha KK! Verlep EN koue water?
    Maar jy is mos die verdraagsame een, dit vat mos ‘n ou soos Andrew om te karring. Kyk dan net wat het hy reggekry met sy omstredenheid?
    Flippie se hits was ho”er as SH. :lol:
    Ek dink jy moet Son weer hier kry! :wink:

  81. 12 September 2008 12:21 nm

    Son is vandag die keiser sonder klere :twisted:

  82. Kris Kras permalink
    12 September 2008 1:02 nm

    Sammi! Nou begin jy my laat wonder wie is nou die kompetisie: Alexander of Andrew? Hmmm… smaak my met verdraagsaamheid kry ‘n man genoeg reg – kyk dan nou net: Sonkind sonder klere! Sonder moeite, met net pure geduld! Kan ‘n man dan nie :cool:

    Sonkind, ek is summier, onvoorwaardelik, onherroepellik jou ewige onderdaan.

    Sonkind, wat vertel jy nou EINTLIK? Die keiser sonder klere – is daai dan nie amper soos kaalkop kiertsregop waarheid praat nie?

  83. 12 September 2008 1:20 nm

    KK (hmm ek hou eintlik nie van die uitspraak van hierdie afkorting nie) Ek begin dus weer
    Kris
    Jy sal maar vir Son moet vra oor die kompetisie, maar is JY dan nie Alexander nie?

  84. Kris Kras permalink
    12 September 2008 1:29 nm

    Son laat haar nie sê nie en nog minder vra, Sammi. Jy sal beter weet van Alexander, maar nou is dit mos ook maar so dat party honde net partykeer in hulle hokke gelos moet word, of hoe ;-)

  85. 12 September 2008 1:47 nm

    Kris
    Netso! I knew it! Jippiee! :smile:

    Son, weet jy dan nie wie Kris Kras regtig is nie?
    Is dit die Z affêre wat jou ontstel?

    Waar is Flippie vandag?

  86. 12 September 2008 2:06 nm

    Sammi – weet jy dan nie – die son sien alles, die son skyn oor alles en dus in effek weet die Son alles. :lol:

    En nee, niks het my ontstel nie, die keiser het net nie klere aan vandag nie. Die keiser speel in die prinsie se tuin. ;-)

  87. sammi permalink
    12 September 2008 2:18 nm

    :lol: :wink:

  88. Kris Kras permalink
    12 September 2008 2:27 nm

    En daar IS dit toe nou:
    Die prinsie se tuin blom en bot in die lente – mooiste angeliere ook.
    Die keiser is kaal en dis hoog tyd.

  89. Kris Kras permalink
    12 September 2008 2:28 nm

    Sammi – onthou om die hondehok toe te hou ;-)

  90. 12 September 2008 2:29 nm

    flippie werk so nou en dag. :-)

    Sien julle is weer lekker aan die gang hier. ;-)

    Dankie Nelba. Sal bietjie aandag gee aan die saak.

  91. 12 September 2008 2:32 nm

    So Kris Kras jy het nou van verlep weer na kiertsregop gegaan sien ek. ;-)

    Son, se nou net die prinsie sien jou so? :oops:

  92. 12 September 2008 2:39 nm

    Flippie – en wie sê die prinsie het nog nie? In ‘n plaastuin in die verre noorde.

  93. sammi permalink
    12 September 2008 2:42 nm

    My lips are sealed

  94. 12 September 2008 2:42 nm

    En toe? Het prinsie iets gese^?

  95. 12 September 2008 2:45 nm

    sammi jou avatar is weer weg sien ek.

  96. 12 September 2008 2:48 nm

    Soms is woorde oorbodig, Flippie ;-) Soms is dit net genoeg om in die sonnetjie se warm strale te sit en sluimer – mmmmm!

  97. sammi permalink
    12 September 2008 2:50 nm

    Flippie, jy weet nie wat frustrasie is nie, nie totdat jy met 3G in die bos sake probeer bedryf nie GRRR, ek’s nou op my lappie en het nie ingelog nie. Kan nie my blognaam onthou nie …EN die haarkapster het my hare afgesny, so ek loer wat hier aangaan so tussen die trane deur.
    Moet asb nie vir Avatar-lose sammi uitskop nie.

  98. 12 September 2008 3:03 nm

    Beter?

  99. Kris Kras permalink
    12 September 2008 3:03 nm

    FF – prinsie kon nie praat nie – op die naat van sy rug, voete onder hom uit; homself winduit geslaan teen die maag :oops:

    Maar ja, rustig sluimer in die son se strale – dit werk nogal. Smaak my dis daai tyd wat drome gedroom word van tuine en prinse en sonstrale en genugtig weet wat nog.

  100. 12 September 2008 3:14 nm

    sammi ek glo jy is regtig jy. Nee ek sal jou nooit uitskop nie. Jammer om te hoor van die haarkapster se ding. Was dit ‘n ongeluk?

    Kris Kras is rustig ook in prinsie se tuin?

  101. 12 September 2008 3:14 nm

    EISH!! delete asb Flippie, flip man! Hoe het DIT nou gebeur :lol: :lol:

  102. 12 September 2008 3:19 nm

    :lol: OK sammi ek sal dit uithaal :lol:

  103. 12 September 2008 3:28 nm

    Sammi vra vir Flippie mooi, delete asb 101?

    R 1780 (i kid you not) se ongeluk? Nee, ek dink hulle wou my ontkroon, of moet ek liewer sê ontTROON. Dis hierdie nuwe D-Ziner skepsels, wat so hier ‘n bietjie snipper en dan DAAR en dan kan hulle net nie stop nie.

  104. 12 September 2008 3:41 nm

    Sammi – vir daardie prys MOET jy net vir ons jou troon wys :lol:

  105. 12 September 2008 3:44 nm

    Flippie, ek skuld jou nog ‘n antw op ‘n lank terug vraag – en for the life of me kan ek nie onthou hoekom ek gedink het jy is ‘n vrou nie. Ek het gaan soek en soek in jou posts en ek vermoed nou dit was oor die katjie insident – dalk kon ek nie glo ‘n man sal oorkom wat jy oorgekom het met die katjie in die motor nie :lol: !!!

    En toe lees ek nou sommer jou prinsie-stories ook. Het nie geweet jy het ook oor die prinsie geskryf nie. Iemand anders, baie geliefd, maar ek dink voor jou tyd, het ook oor die prinsie geskryf ;-)

  106. 12 September 2008 3:51 nm

    Sonkind
    Kan jy dit glo? Knip, kleur, treatment, knip en meer knip, nee jel jong, maar uiteraard toe ek daar uitstap en hul vra: Isn’t it gorgeous? Knik ek net en sê ABsolutely! Na daardie belaglike bedrag (nota aan self om in volgende lewe ‘n DZiner haarkapper te word) was daar nie ‘n manier wat ek voor hulle sou ingee nie!

    My lips are still sealed oor iemand geliefd.

  107. 12 September 2008 3:52 nm

    My aarde sonkind ek het nie geweet daar was iemand anders wat al ‘n prinsie karakter gehad het nie. As ek geweet het sou ek dalk iets anders gebruik het. Al gewonder of ek moet aangaan met my prinsie stories. Merfi het dit baie geniet.

    Nee jong om “blond” te wees is nie altyd die uitsluitlike voorreg van die vroulike geslag nie. ;-) Sulke goed kom my ook oor van tyd tot tyd.

    Haai sammi maar moet die klomp D-Ziners voor stok kry. Dis mos nou ‘n klomp geld. Klink my meer na D-Crowners. :-)

  108. Andrew G permalink
    12 September 2008 5:08 nm

    Hi again everyone from the Godless Liberal,

    I did not plan to come back but hey it’s Friday and I’m a sucker for punishment.

    Firstly thank you to those who responded to my drivel. I appreciate the time you spent writing your comments and I did read them all, some of them I needed to read twice because I didn’t quite get it.

    KK: You said you would not pray for the salvation of my soul. Post #59 Die Skepper se handtekening

    Sies man! *only kidding*

    This is so refreshingly honest. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, you are a good man. Normally Christians lie to me when they say they will pray for my salvation when in fact they can’t wait to see my ass burn in Hell. Do they not know that God can read the minds of 6.7 billion people simultaneously 24 hours a day and when they lie they are not advancing their cause for a good time in Heaven?

    Did you know that scientific studies on prayer have shown conclusively that praying for someone, for instance better health, makes absolutely no difference? It is just sad that money needs to be spent on showing something that to me seems so obvious.

    *whisper* In the Islamic paradise you get to drink wine that does not give you a hangover. It flows from fountains. In my book that’s a good deal!

  109. 12 September 2008 5:22 nm

    Ek kom nou laat by, maar wil tog my sent of twee los.

    Ek dink nie moraliteit is gekoppel aan geloof nie.

    En iets oor Stephen Hawking, hy maak gereeld sulke weddenskappe en dit moet nie verkeerd opgeneem word dat hy nie saamstel met wat ondersoek word nie. Hy is eintlik lus om ‘n nuwe teorie uit te dink of die huidige een te hersien.

    En die laaste punt, soos ek die Selfish Gene verstaan, het die nie te doen met ‘selfsug’ soos ons dit verstaan nie. Ook word die terms “survival of the fittest”, totaal en al verkeerd geinterpreteer. Met krag en sterkte het dit min te make.

  110. Andrew G permalink
    12 September 2008 5:27 nm

    Dankie tog vir jou inset rosalindfranklin.

  111. Andrew G permalink
    12 September 2008 5:43 nm

    What stops us from living anti-darwinian lives socially when we have the ability to rise above our own origins?

  112. Andrew G permalink
    12 September 2008 7:19 nm

    I read Steven Hawkins’ book A Brief History Of Time many years ago. The way I understand his bet is that it is a kind of insurance policy. If he is wrong about the Higgs Boson particle the blow will be softened by the fact that he won $100. If he is right he doesn’t care about losing $100.

  113. 12 September 2008 8:19 nm

    Jip Andrew G, dit was dieselfde met sy baseball-weddenskap jare gelede. Daarmee het hy die weddenskap verloor, MAAR ‘n hele nuwe, werkende teorie het uit sy brein na vore getree:

    Hier is die storie

    In 1974 het Hawking ’n model voorgestel vir gravitasiekolke (’n swartgat wat vorm wanneer ’n ster ineenstort en sterf).
    Sy stelling is dat gravitasiekolke nie totaal en al donker is nie, maar termiese straling afgee (hoe kleiner, hoe warmer) wat uiteindelik verdamp nadat al die energie opgebruik is. Die termiese straling bestaan uit subatomiese deeltjies en staan bekend as Hawking-straling.

    Hawking het ook ontdek dat kort ná die oerknal talle oer-gravitasiekolke ontstaan het.
    Saam met kollegas het hy wiskundig bepaal dat gravitasiekolke beskryf kan word aan die kenmerke van massa, elektriese lading en draaimomentum.

    Hy het aanvanklik gesê die swaartekrag-singulariteit in die middel van ’n gravitasiekolk sal lei na ’n klein heelal. En die inligting wat in ’n gravitasiekolk beland en uit ons gebeurtenishorison is, kan nooit herwin word nie.

    In 2004 het Hawking aangekondig hy korrigeer homself, soos wat baie in die wetenskap gebeur in die soeke na akkuraatheid, en dat gravitasiekolke nooit ’n absolute gebeurtenishorison vorm nie, maar ’n skynbare horison.

    Hy het in sy nuwe stelling bygevoeg dat gravitasiekolke uiteindelik die inligting wat hulle insluk wel sal vrystel, maar in ’n vreemde en verwronge vorm. Hoewel hy met die regstelling ’n weddenskap met ’n ander navorser verloor het, het hy die vorige paradoks reggestel.

  114. Andrew G permalink
    12 September 2008 8:25 nm

    Kom sluit by ons aan by Ontwykende Gebeurtenis Horisonne “thread”. Dit lyk my almal hang daar uit vannaand. Dankie vir jou pos.

  115. Andrew G permalink
    12 September 2008 9:20 nm

    I spent several hours reading the Bible yesterday to try and figure out who said we must kill disobedient or cheeky children. God or the opinion of the authors of the books within the Bible. This is what I found:

    After Moses returned from the mountain and revealed the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, God spoke to Moses again. (With much fanfare and pyrotechnic effects I might add.)

    “When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear.”

    Exodus chapter 21 then starts with:

    “These are the laws you are to set before them:”

    This, as far as I can tell is God speaking and not some hallucinating goat herder.

    A whole lot of laws follow, mostly considered immoral in today’s society, and then in verse 15:

    “Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.”

    Then in the New Testament Mark 7:9-13

    “… For Moses said: … Anyone who curses his father or his mother must be put to death…”

    And again in Matthew 15:4-7

    “…For God said: … and anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death…”

    What is the general consensus regarding who made this very disturbing “law”, God or Moses?

  116. Andrew G permalink
    12 September 2008 9:39 nm

    Oh before I forget the first 4 injunctions of the 10 Commandments have nothing to do with morality.

  117. 12 September 2008 9:48 nm

    Andrew
    How else would the seriousness of God’s word have been put across in rather barbaric times about 4000 years ago? It would have been apt for then.

    Surely everything in the Bible comes directly from God?

  118. 12 September 2008 9:56 nm

    Early to bed, early to rise….bedtime for me. I would love for the truly learned to get involved here, but Andrew, alas, I shall bid you goodnight and honestly wish you all the best with your quest. Please don’t abandon us :lol:

    Nag julle!

  119. Andrew G permalink
    12 September 2008 10:00 nm

    Good night Sammi and hope you have a great weekend too.

  120. 13 September 2008 1:38 vm

    Andrew: Daardie sogenaamde navorsing oor gebed is natuurlik hoogs suspisieus en selfs onsinnig op verskeie vlakke. Maar nou ja dit sal omtrent ‘n opskrywing op sy eie verg om daaroor uit te wei en dan sal ons nogsteeds nie saamstem nie omdat ons uiteenlopende standpunte het. :-)

    Ek volstaan ook by wat sammi se^ oor God se hantering van die Israeliete in die woestyn. Dis soos wanneer mens ‘n kind moet straf. Dieselfde kind word later groot en dan hoef mens nie meer so streng te wees nie want die kind het mettertyd geleer om reg te doen.

    Rosa: Ek verstaan nie presies wat jy bedoel met die “koppelling”tussen moraliteit en geloof nie. As iemand gelowig is kan sy geloof tog sy optrede beinvloed. Indien iemand nie gelowig is nie kan so persoon nogsteeds ‘n moraliteit he^ soos deur die persoon se kultuur gedefinieer, maar selfs dan kan die moraliteit in die kultuur oorspronklik van gelowiges af kom.

    Ek weet dat die Selfish Gene eintlik handel oor die gene wat teen mekaar kompeteer, maar dit manifesteer wel in die organismes as ‘n kompetisie om nageslag te kan produseer en wat daadwerklik daarop neerkom dat die beter (sterker, vinniger, ens.) organisme ‘n beter kans het om ‘n nageslag te produseer. Sodoende lyk dit asof elke organisme selfsugtig is.

    Ek het onder Ontwykende… kommentaar gelewer oor Stephen Hawking

    Sammi: Hoop jy slaap lekker.

  121. 13 September 2008 8:01 vm

    Goeiemore!
    Wie wil dan nou slaap as hulle kan blog, hmm Flippie? :wink:
    Vandag hardloop ek so julle moet lekker hier speel.

    Andrew
    What is more amazing is that during the unfatihful times and lack of trust in God (those 40 years in the desert) He gave them the 10 commandments as rules to live by. Those very rules should still apply today. BUT then about 1500 years later in the NT Jesus pulled in the Pharisees by reminding them about the purity of spirit.
    I find it sobering that those old laws never went missing.

  122. 13 September 2008 8:55 vm

    More sammi. Jy moet so bietjie by my nuutste inskrywing gaan kyk. Daar’s so ietsie vir jou. :-)

  123. Andrew G permalink
    13 September 2008 9:02 vm

    Good morning Flippie,

    “Indien iemand nie gelowig is nie kan so persoon nogsteeds ‘n moraliteit he^ soos deur die persoon se kultuur gedefinieer, maar selfs dan kan die moraliteit in die kultuur oorspronklik van gelowiges af kom.”

    How do you draw this conclusion? Believers of which faith, Christianity? If you lump all Christian factions together (Catholics, Protestants and my personal darling NGK ect.) they still make up less than 50% of the world population.

    Does the moral filter we apply when judging the morality of the Bible have its origins in the very same Bible we are filtering in the first place? This is circular logic.

    Side note: Islam is currently the single biggest and fastest growing religion in the world. I’m not sure if it will make you feel any better but this growth is bound to level off soon and atheism although in the minority now, is growing faster than Islam. Atheism is of course NOT a religion or belief system. When the number of atheists reach a critical mass it might encourage many more closet atheists to come out, further increasing the numbers. Access to information through television, radio, cell phones and the internet has undoubtedly played a role. Information is the number one enemy of the powerful mystique of religion and it can no longer be withheld from the masses.

  124. Andrew G permalink
    13 September 2008 10:14 vm

    Followers of the biggest religion in the world believe:

    “In the year 619, according to tradition, Muhammad was awakened one night by the Angel who brought a winged horse called Buraq which Muhammad mounted. (In some references the horse has a human face and a peacock’s tail). In a flash, the winged horse rode into the heavens toward Jerusalem where Muhammad offered prayers at the Temple with Abraham, Moses, Jesus and many other prophets. On the winged horse, he rose to all seven heavens, where he was given a future vision of paradise and hell.”

    I remain unconvinced.

  125. 13 September 2008 11:29 vm

    Goeie more Andrew

    I believe that even if only 10% of the members of a culture are believers then that is enough to keep the culture on the right track. Anyway, during those bad centuries we called the “dark ages” where the catholic church ruled, one good thing came from it. Christian principles became entrenched in the western cultures and mind set.

    “Does the moral filter we apply when judging the morality of the Bible have its origins in the very same Bible we are filtering in the first place? This is circular logic.”

    Your argument once again clearly reveals the assumption that there is no God. If you would allow for the possibility of a God the situation changes drastically. God can reveal through the Holy Spirit what the real meaning of a particular part of scripture is. The true meaning is not always clear from what is written, but as a believer one can understand the meaning because the Holy Spirit clarifies it to the believer.

    Last night I read the part in Luke 24:13-35. In it Jesus appears to two travelers after His resurrection. In verse 27 it says (in Afrikaans): “Daarna het Hy [...] al die Skrifuitsprake wat op Hom betrekking het, vir hulle uitgele^” in verse 32 it says “Hulle se^ toe vir mekaar ‘Het ons hart nie warm geword toe Hy op die pad met ons gepraat en vir ons die Skrif uitgele^ het nie?’” So they did not understand these passages in the scripture before Jesus came and revealed the true meaning to them.

    If the information that is communicated over the media is unbiased and not indoctrinating in any way I don’t see why it will cause people to loose their faith. The problem is that atheists are actively proselytizing atheism and they hide that in what is supposed to be unbiased information, especially in what is purported to be science. Why do you think am I constantly going on about misleading statements from scientists and the media reporting on science? See, due to an unfortunate bias between religion and science most religious people are not scientifically informed and some atheistic scientists are abusing this situation to mislead uninformed believers.

    Atheism is a believe system. I wrote a post on that “‘n Gelowige wetenskaplike!?”. Perhaps that post doesn’t make it clear enough so perhaps I need to write another post about that.

  126. Andrew G permalink
    13 September 2008 1:39 nm

    “Your argument once again clearly reveals the assumption that there is no God.”

    Yes and it will remain that way until you produce evidence for a God. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible Gods you will understand why I dismiss yours. I believe Stephen Roberts said that.

    “Why do you think am I constantly going on about misleading statements from scientists and the media reporting on science?”

    Science is self correcting; misleading or false information will quickly be exposed.

    “Atheism is a believe system. I wrote a post on that “n Gelowige wetenskaplike!?”.”

    Is it a belief system if I do not believe in Father Christmas? The word atheist should not exist. It is silly. Am I now to be called an a-father-christmasist for not believing that the fat friendly guy exists? Must I tell my friends that it is my belief system that goblins do not exist?

  127. 13 September 2008 2:37 nm

    “When you understand why you dismiss all other possible Gods you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

    The reason for choosing a particular religion depends on whether you approach it from the “inside” or the “outside”. When you are a believer the reason for believing in a particular God is just that, your faith. Not something a non-believer can understand I guess. :-) When you come from the outside and you want to choose a particular faith then I guess it is more of an issue. However, contrary to what you said before, there’s not really that much of a choice. Some of the eastern religions are more life philosophies than religions so I’ll ignore them for this discussion. Polytheism I reject on the basis that it doesn’t make sense to me. There are basically only three monotheistic religions, all originating from the same root: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The latter is not a religion I think any free thinking person would choose. Judaism is the root of Christianity. It just lacks a Saviour. That leaves you with Christianity.

    “Science is self correcting; misleading or false information will quickly be exposed.”

    True, but we are talking about scientists and not science. It can take time to expose the misleading statements by these scientists and in the meanwhile they are doing a lot of damage.

    “Am I now to be called an a-father-christmasist … ”

    It is not the name that makes the difference. Obviously you believe that there is no Father Christmas even though you cannot proof it. But that is not such a big issue. Believing in the existence or non-existence of God on the other hand makes a big difference to how you perceive the world around you. That is why it forms (part of) your believe system. Still that is not what I have a problem with. It is the dishonesty of the atheist in that they tend to deny this that is misleading the uninformed.

  128. Andrew G permalink
    14 September 2008 2:14 nm

    Many Christians take their belief seriously, so seriously that they put a day of the week aside to worship a personal God.

    During these gatherings, rituals are performed, some are very subtle and seemingly harmless to the blissfully unaware congregation. I’m talking about synchronized movement. I was reminded of this about a week ago when I attended a funeral service at a NGK. Constantly there were interruptions during the service and everyone had to stand up and then sit down again in unison. The Moslems are not interested in half measures when it comes to indoctrination of the mind and the results are quite spectacular to watch.

    Other rituals are more crude and barbaric like the Eucharist performed during Mass when followers eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus. What is even more disturbing about this cannibalistic ritual is that the wafer that has been blessed actually in substance becomes the body of Christ. They even have a word for it, it is called transubstantiation.

    Many godless people like me looking from the outside in, find this ritual particularly disturbing and wonder why it is still performed in a civilized society.

    Have a Blessed Sunday.

  129. 14 September 2008 2:37 nm

    Andrew
    Seeing that you made an open statement, not specifically addressed to Flippie;

    Why is is that “Many godless people like me looking from the outside in, find this ritual particularly disturbing and wonder why it is still performed in a civilized society”
    is trying so hard to discredit Christianity? Why the near obsession?

    It also reminds me of God’s promise to always be with us and then I wonder If God seems so distant to you, who moved?

  130. 14 September 2008 2:43 nm

    … and then there are those Christians seeing these “godless people”, “looking from the outside in” and we wonder to ourselves, why are they so obsessed about it? :lol:

    Andrew, I’ll be honest with you, I’ve attended many sermons in a wide variety of faith traditions and many of them I did not feel comfortable with. However, I appreciate the diversity of mankind and the fact that people don’t like the same things. So I respect their ways of worship. What I am opposed to is when one group of people feel that they have some self imposed right to tell other people what they should be doing and how they should do it.

  131. 14 September 2008 2:47 nm

    Hi sammi ek het nie jou kommentaar gesien nie.

  132. 14 September 2008 2:56 nm

    Ja Flippie, dis omdat dit jou so lank vat :lol:

  133. Andrew G permalink
    14 September 2008 9:48 nm

    Hi Sammi,

    I thought long and hard on how to answer your question as to why I am verbally intolerant to religious superstition. In a previous comment I rather vaguely eluded to the fact that it causes suffering. I would now like to quote an up and coming neuroscientist named Sam Harris who in his book Letter To A Christian Nation used the example of stem-cell research to illustrate how religious belief can unknowingly cause harm to society. It is rather long for a comment so I will break it up to make it easier on the eye. I hope you read it all as I took the time to type it all out this evening just for you.

  134. Andrew G permalink
    14 September 2008 9:52 nm

    “Stem-cell research is one of the most promising developments in the last centaury of medicine. It could offer therapeutic break-throughs for every disease or injury process that human beings suffer – for the simple reason that embryonic stem cells can become any tissue in the human body.”

    “A three-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 100 000 cells in the brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed in stem-cell research do not have brains, or even neurons. Consequently there is no reason to believe that they can suffer their destruction in any way at all. It is worth remembering, in this context, that when a person’s brain has died, we currently deem it acceptable to harvest his organs (provided he donated them for this purpose) and bury him in the ground. If it is acceptable to treat a person whose brain has died as something less than a human being, it should be acceptable to treat a blastocyst as such. If you are concerned about suffering in the universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties than killing a human blastocyst.

    Perhaps you think the crucial difference between a fly and a human blastocyst is to be found in the latter’s potential to become a fully developed human being. But almost every cell in your body is a potential human being, given our recent advances in genetic engineering. Every time you scratch your nose, you have committed a Holocaust of potential human beings. This is a fact. The argument from a cell’ potential gets you absolutely nowhere.

    But let us assume for the moment, that every three-day-old human embryo has a soul worthy of our moral concern. Embryos at this stage occasionally split, becoming separate people (identical twins). Is this a case of one soul splitting into two? Two embryos sometimes fuse into a single individual, called a chimera. You or someone you know may have developed this way. No doubt theologians are struggling even now to determine what becomes of the extra human soul in such a case.

  135. Andrew G permalink
    14 September 2008 9:53 nm

    Isn’t it time we admitted that this arithmetic of souls does not make any sense? The naïve idea of souls in a Petri dish is intellectually indefensible. It is also morally indefensible, given that it now stands in the way of some of the most promising research in the history of medicine. Your beliefs about the human soul are, at this very moment, prolonging the scarcely endurable misery of tens of millions of human beings. You believe “life starts at the moment of conception.” You believe that there are souls in each of these blastocysts and that the interest of one soul – the soul of a little girl with burns over 75 percent of her body, say – cannot trump the interests of another soul, even if that soul happens to live inside a Petri dish. Given the accommodations we have made to faith-based irrationality in our public discourse, it is often suggested, even by advocates of stem-cell research, that your position on this matter has some degree of moral legitimacy. It does not. Your resistance to embryonic stem-cell research is, at best, uninformed. There is, in fact, no moral reason for our federal government’s unwillingness to fund this work. We should throw immense resources into stem-cell research, and we should do so immediately. Because of what Christians like yourself believe about souls, we are not doing this. In fact, several states have made such work illegal. If one experiments on a blastocyst in South Dakota, for instance, one risks spending years in prison.

    The moral truth here is obvious: anyone who feels that the interest of a blastocyst just might supersede the interest of a child with a spinal cord injury has had his moral sense blinded by religious metaphysics. The link between religion and “morality” – so regularly proclaimed and so seldom demonstrated – is fully belied here, as it is wherever religious dogma supersedes moral reasoning and genuine compassion.”

  136. 15 September 2008 7:49 vm

    Andrew
    I am reading this now – will get back to you later.

  137. 15 September 2008 9:53 vm

    Andrew
    Sorry for the delay, but Electricians are here sorting out teething problems (yet again)

    I am somewhat confused regarding your answer/question, am I correct in assuming that you refer to religious bodies STOPPING people’s suffering?

    I must admit that after reading the article from Sam Harris, my first reaction was “Why the harping on the soul of an embryo? “ and “ Why the need to use stem cells from an EMBRYO and not a brain-dead declared person? “ And “ Rubbing your nose….” AND “souls living in a Petri dish”?

    Without running the risk of hi-jacking Flippie’s blog here (trying to be as brief as possible) I’ve come to a few conclusions regarding you
    1) Your reading matter seems to be mostly concentrated on the side of “Lets prove there is no God” This leads me to ask you – Have you read books from believers?
    2) Your leaning is towards that of a provocateur – Trying to persuade believers otherwise.
    3) Yet you are searching for answers.

    Here is my answer to you in light of the above:

    Part of Psalm 57
    My soul is among lions;
    I lie among the sons of men
    Who are set on fire,
    Whose teeth are spears and arrows,
    And their tongue a sharp sword.

    At this juncture it actually makes me uncomfortable to enter into this type of debate with you, as we are on opposing sides of our own realities. PLUS I am neither a scientist nor into Metaphysics.

    AND
    1) Science said 14 years ago, I will be gone in 4 months, long story…
    2) Science promises 5 years off my age if I use Age Defiant creams – hmm, have you tried those?
    3) Science is a magnificent tool for knowledge and absolutely essential, BUT not if it is used to discredit the very Creator who made it possible.

    Oh and as for Sam’s article, it gives me the creeps as God has created everything UNDER man, so using the analogy of killing a FLY – no really!!
    Do you really believe stem-cell research is always going to be used for the good of people only in the future?

    Non sequitor?

  138. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 10:39 vm

    Thanks for your reply Sammi, I’ll respond once I have cooled off a bit. You don’t want to know what I have to say right now.

    “Oh and as for Sam’s article, it gives me the creeps as God has created everything UNDER man, so using the analogy of killing a FLY – no really!!”

    This is so awful it is embarising.

  139. 15 September 2008 12:03 nm

    Sammi! Andrew! Please … no blood ! … ;-)

    I need to catch up here.

  140. 15 September 2008 12:31 nm

    Andrew: “… it [religion] causes suffering.”

    Well most things in the world cause suffering in one way or another. That doesn’t mean the original idea is bad or that one should remove it. It is simply a consequence of the fact that humanity can corrupt anything. Airplane are supposed to be good useful means to travel. Who knew somebody would use them to cause death and suffering to thousand on 9/11?

    Oh boy I just started to read the piece that you copied there. Are you kidding me?!! It’s so revolting that I cannot read further Andrew. The argument sucks. Do you honestly have such a poor regard for the human life? To compare an embryo to a fly! A fly shall forever just remain a fly while the human embryo has the potential if left to its own devices to become a human.

    I am not in principle against stem cell research but not if it requires this. I heard they can obtain stem cells from birth fluid. Perhaps they can do it that way.

    The problem goes beyond where the stem cells come from. It is also a matter of what they are going to do with it. If it stays with finding cures for deceases then there would be no problem. But the stem cells give them the power to do the most horrible things that I shall not even mention here.

    Let me rather give you a different example. Nuclear technology gives us the ability to produce a large amount of power in nuclear reactors. Yet the US used their knowledge to develop weapons of mass destruction with it. Now today they are afraid of what would happen if this technology falls in the hands of some crazy terrorist. They never thought of the consequences of what they were producing.

    I’m not saying humanity should not do research in advanced technologies, but it needs to be done in a moral fashion and it is the duty of religious believers to provide that morality.

  141. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 1:27 nm

    Bullshit!

  142. 15 September 2008 1:37 nm

    Oh dear, Andrew, so our argument now degraded to this level, hey? ;-)

    I’ve notice that you’ve never actually replied to any of my comments on your statements. They’re all left up there in the air. One gets the impression that you do not really have a reply. Am I right? :grin:

  143. 15 September 2008 1:58 nm

    Ek kom loer nou net hier in om te sien of Andrew darem al tyd gehad het om my comment te lees, o wee, Andrew, Waarom is jy nou so kwaad? :shock:

    It sounds that it is OK for you to write whatever is on your mind but when one puts one own’s viewpoint across, and it does not coincide with yours, there is trouble. :?:
    Hoekom nou sommer vir Flippie ook ‘n dwarsklap gee?

    Flippie
    As die bloed moet spat, dan moet dit maar… :wink:

    Tot later, hardloop weer.

  144. 15 September 2008 3:50 nm

    Sammi – ek sien jy is nou amper daar waar jy sal verstaan hoekom ek opgehou het om met Andrew te redeneer hieroor – hoekom ek besluit het hierdie skaap is so dwarstrekkerig, hy moet maar die afgrond in af donder, daar is 99 ander waarna ek eerder moet gaan omsien ;-)

    Ek en Andrew het vreedsaam agree to disagree :lol:

  145. 15 September 2008 5:08 nm

    Sonkind
    Toe kom gooi jy die wolf hier tussen die skape? :shock: :lol:
    Moet sê ek het nounet eers Sam Harris gegoogle en sonder dat ek besef het waaroor die man gaan, het my nekhare behoorlik gerys vanoggend toe ek Andrew se skrywe lees – very odd!

    Lyk my hy is nogsteeds besig om te wag om af te koel :grin:

  146. 15 September 2008 5:19 nm

    Hi Sammi en Sonkind, ek dink ons moet Andrew maar ‘n bietjie kans gee. Dalk het hy ‘n blou Maandag gehad of dalk het die slegte weer in die Kaap sy gemoedstoestand geaffekteer. ;-)

  147. 15 September 2008 5:49 nm

    Ek wag geduldig Flippie.

  148. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 6:56 nm

    Hi Flippie, Sammi and Sonkind,

    Yes I have cooled off a bit thank you.

    Flippie:

    I’m sorry you didn’t finish reading the quote as I found it to very convincing. *upside down smiley face*

    You are being mischievous (I’ll be kind and not say intellectually dishonest) when you say:

    “Do you honestly have such a poor regard for the human life?”

    Oi joi joi, it is exactly my point that I do have a great regard for humanity but it is the faithful, blinded by a Bronze Age Myth, that does not. Please go back and read the quote above SLOWLY all the way to the bottom.

    The supreme irony of your 911 airplane analogy, which is a weak one by the way, is that it was motivated by religious indoctrination. We know this because the hijackers shouted GOD IS GREAT, before smashing into the Twin Towers. I wonder what atheists would shout if they were to do something equally insane.

    Unconvincing answers as the ones you have given me thus far are unsustainable in the long run. Which is why people are quietly turning away from religious irrationality in ever increasing numbers. As I have said before, non believers are growing at a greater rate than the fastest growing religion in the world. Churches are continuously forced to close their doors in Europe and it is reasonable to assume that in time, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, will end up on the same ash-heap as all the other religions that preceded it. Future generations will look back to this superstitious era, the era you and I are living in now, and they will refer to it as the Dark Ages. For instance, right now Sammi might be thinking she is psychic for Google-ling Sam Harris before I posted my comment above.

    Your patronizing tone above #142 and #143 I will take on the chin as I probably deserved it for loosing my temper. *peace*

    “The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next.” – RALPH EMMERSON

  149. 15 September 2008 7:26 nm

    Andrew
    You have stil not answered any of our questions.

  150. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 7:32 nm

    Sammi, there are so many things I want to comment on, it just becomes a bit over whelming for me.

    One at a time please. Go ahead and ask but please stick to one question only, OK?

  151. 15 September 2008 7:37 nm

    Andrew
    Nou hoekom klink jy so moedverlore?

  152. 15 September 2008 7:39 nm

    moedverlore = forlorn

  153. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 7:45 nm

    Ek dink nie ek is nie Sammi dit klink dalk net so. Ek kom nou net terug van ‘n uitstappie in die veld met Apollo en ons het dit albei geniet. Ek is op die oomblik besig om iets vir jou te soek wat ek vir jou wil gee. Dit is ‘n link na ‘n site wat deur verkullery jou laat dink jy is psyhcic. Harmless fun. Maar dink jy ek kan dit kry?

  154. 15 September 2008 7:52 nm

    Andrew
    Dis vir my snaaks dat jy dink die wêreld is besig om afstand te doen van God. My 15-jarige laaitie is by ‘n cell-groep (uit sy eie – 93 van hulle) daar is ‘n groot oplewing hier in SA, ou maat, jy sal agteroor val indien jy begin navorsing doen oor ons jongmense.

    Waarom wil jy my koppel met psigiese dinge?

  155. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 8:06 nm

    As ek reg verstaan het jy Sam Harris ge-Google voor my kommentaar van hom vroer. Toe dink ek ek sal enige gedagtes wat jy dalk sou he dat jy psigies is in die nek in slaan. Dit is een van die supernatural ‘gelowe’ wat my baie die m**r in maak. On wetend word mense uitgebuit met hierdie snert.

  156. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 8:12 nm

    Ek moet se ek het nie enige syfers oor Suid Afrika se geloof oortuigings nie. Ek sal dit baie interesant vind. Laaste wat ek gehoor het glo 96% van Suid Afrikaaners in een of ander vorm van die supernatural.

  157. 15 September 2008 8:17 nm

    *Sammi slaan vir Andrew teen die kop*

    Kyk na vorige comments asb. Nee Andrew, waar val jy uit?

  158. 15 September 2008 8:19 nm

    Andrew: in your dreams :-) I know you *wish* that religion would just disappear overnight, but that is not going to happen. Sorry :twisted:

    It is true that Christians and other religions are often blamed for things that go wrong in this world and unfortunately it is true that there are people calling themselves Christians that commit some of the most horrible atrocities. Please remember, in as far as people do these things they are not following Christian principles. I think you are quite familiar with the true Christian principles so I do not need to explain, but if not I’ll be happy to oblige.

    You see it is all human nature. Religion just becomes the excuse. If there were no religion then these people would have found another excuse. So if you think you can remove bad things out of life by removing religion you are sadly mistaken. Religion is actually the one thing that prevents humanity from becoming completely corrupt and self destructive.

  159. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 8:25 nm

    Flippie:

    Ek moet se toe hierdie thread begin, het ek gedink hy sal lank aanhou, ons staan nou al op #156. Jy kan dalk begin adverteer en so ‘n klein ou ietsie op die kant verdien. Wat is jou ‘traffic’ van ‘lurkers’ as ek mag vra?

  160. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 8:33 nm

    My fout Sammi, ek het verkeerd verstaan.

    Ek moet leer om gereeld my skerm te update, ek sien nou eers die ander kommentaar.

    Well respond shortly.

  161. 15 September 2008 8:34 nm

    Andrew
    Tenspyte van die feit dat jy oulike speletjies speel, het baie van ons dinge om te doen en more kuier ons op Flippie se nuwe thread.
    Een vraag op ‘n slag, sê jy:
    Wat DOEN jy?

    Ek gaan nou slaap

    Flippie,
    Lekker lala.

  162. Andrew G permalink
    15 September 2008 8:47 nm

    Flippie:

    #158

    The philosopher Daniel Dennett is optimistic that on the religious scene things will look very different in 30 years time than they do now. This is of course only his opinion. (I just love that old man.) However polls show that belief is on the decline.

    It is the doctrine that is to blame Fippie and not the individuals that make it their life philosophy. I have a moral obligation to society to expose religious doctrine for what it truly is. Hence (partly) my presence here. By the way I have no ill intentions towards you or any of your friends that visit here. I am a non violent person. Just wanted to get that out the way.

    I completely disagree with you last paragraph.

  163. 15 September 2008 9:10 nm

    Andrew ek sal eers na my statistieke moet gaan kyk. Kan nie nou onthou nie. Die ding is dit fluktueer baie. Ek dink dis net jy wat maak dat dit nou so hoog is. ;-)

    So Andrew, be so kind and explain to me why the doctrine is to blame. Perhaps you need to start by explaining what you mean by the “doctrine” and then what is wrong with it.

    Lekker slaap Sammi ons gesels more weer. :-)

  164. Andrew G permalink
    16 September 2008 4:42 nm

    Hi Sammi,

    Comment #129
    “Why the near obsession?”

    I did a rough count of the books I own and estimate that less than 2% are considered “anti-religious”. (two books). However, religion is currently a hot topic in the world today and discussing it is relevant.

    I do not have any religious books in my possession other than the Bible (fiction?) which I use to reference check some of the atheist arguments I come across.

    What is the “pro-religious” percentage like in your collection? How much time do you and your family invest in, “sel-groep” conversations, the reading of religious material, prayer and worship?

  165. Andrew G permalink
    16 September 2008 4:50 nm

    Hi Flippie,

    In reply to your post # 163

    doc•trine
    1. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
    2. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
    3. Archaic Something taught; a teaching.

    Children have nightmares about Hell, religious teaching violates basic human rights, it foments bigotry, it can even kill you as any suicide bomber in training will testify, it fuels war, it dumbs down peoples minds and makes them hostile to science. In America religious fundamentalists appose the teaching of evolution in biology classrooms. It has been estimated that if it were not for religion we would be 1500 years more technologically advanced than we are now. Remember how scientists were boiled alive because their ideas were deemed too dangerous by the church? Others refused to publish there work out of fear or were intimidated into withdrawing their findings. This is what is wrong with your doctrine. And as Darwin put it, it is a damndable one.

    Here is one more example which is closer to home. The question of homosexuality was raised on your blog a while back and you and others seriously debated the issue. At the time I thought, why on earth is this still coming up. Your Bible advises stoning as suitable punishment for these victimized people. I need not tell you that were you to try a stunt like that you would be incarcerated.

    And all this for a God who’s existence lacks evidence of any kind.

    One last point, some of the replies I have received after posting a comment I deliberately left open ended for all to bear witness to the mental gymnastics that is required to sustain such an irrational belief.

    I have decided to withdraw from this debate as it is clear to any reasonable person that no matter how persuasive my arguments were to be or how noble the cause, your fear of Hell is simply too great an obstacle to overcome.

    Amen. (meaning: it is so; truly)

    “Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man – living in the sky – who watches everything you do, every minute of the day. And the invisible man has a list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ‘til the end of time … But He loves you!” – GEORGE CARLIN

  166. 16 September 2008 5:10 nm

    Flippiefanus, jammer ek val nou sommer hier in. Ek is op pad, gaan die rekenaar nou afsit, en kan nie self lees nie, sal later, maar ek het soort van per abuis op die volgende afgekom:
    http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/25/there-is-no-universal-standard-of-morality/
    Dit is uit ‘n nie-christelike oogpunt sou ek dink. Het gedink dit sal dalk vir jou interessant wees om gou te gaan kyk en dalk selfs kommentaar te lewer. As dit nonsens is, maak maar net oop en weer toe. :)

  167. 16 September 2008 5:41 nm

    Andrew: it seems that your argument against doctrine is the same that you gave previously and for which I gave you the answer in #158. So in answer to the paragraph “Children have nightmares…” read what I said in #158.

    As for the statement “It has been estimated that if it were not for religion we would be 1500 years more technologically advanced than we are now.” That is just such nonsense. How did they estimate it? In my opinion humanity would have destroyed itself long ago if it were not for the morality that comes with Christianity. So instead of being 1500 years advanced they would have done something terrible and destroyed themselves.

    Well let’s talk a bit more about homosexualism and for that matter let’s include all forms of sexual immorality. Not too long ago there was a clear indication of the consequences thereof when AIDS started to spread. Interestingly enough it was not some technology that prevented this disease from wiping out life on earth. It was good old morality that did the job. People had to learn to have “safe sex.” Of course this is not the same as what is described in the Bible, but if people lived as the Bible prescribed then AIDS would never have been a problem. The best that your beloved technology could come up with so far was retrovirals for the rest morality had to come to the rescue.

    I did not find your arguments particularly persuasive. In fact there were a lot of rhetoric and very little substance. I have always been able to counter all your arguments and you have ofter then stepped away from further discussion on that topic, from which I conclude that you don’t have any further argument. I would be surprised if you have ever been able to turn any believer away from their faith with such arguments.

    Anyway, I did enjoy the discussion and if you wish to proceed with the discussion you are very welcome here.

  168. 16 September 2008 5:54 nm

    annerkant, dankie vir die skakel.

  169. 16 September 2008 9:39 nm

    Ekskuus.

    Ek bedoel http://www.toksies.iblog.co.za/2008/09/16/geloof/

  170. 16 September 2008 9:39 nm

    Die verkeerde skakel.

    http://www.toksies.iblog.co.za/2008/09/16/geloof/

  171. 17 September 2008 10:48 vm

    Alex/toksies jou kommentaar het in my spam geland. Dankie vir die skakel. Ek sal gaan loer daar.

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